Fountains of Wayne - An interview with Wayne Grudem

Wayne Grudem, well known for his writing, has been a leading light in reuniting charismatic and Reformed churches. In 2010 Wayne will be speaking at New Word Alive. He talked to Jonathan Carswell for EN.

JC: It was announced recently that the NIV is to be updated — what do you think of that news?

WG: The 1984 NIV is due for an update. I hope the 2011 NIV will correct the inaccurate gender language of the TNIV. Millions have used the NIV for many years and it has brought much benefit.

JC: What are these gender problems? And what do you make of Don Carson saying the TNIV is the best version around?

WG: Imposing ‘gender-neutral’ requirements on a Bible translation limits our ability to translate accurately, especially regarding singulars and plurals, and male pronouns, and the words ‘man’, ‘father’, ‘son’, ‘brother’. I published a list of 3,686 places where the TNIV became inaccurate just because they were avoiding those common words! When a translator starts with a list of ordinary English words he is not allowed to use in certain contexts, it severely limits the translation. I was happy to see Zondervan, Biblica and the NIV’s Committee on Bible Translation issue a joint statement saying that they were discontinuing the TNIV! The Christian public just did not accept it, in spite of massive marketing efforts.

I have great respect for Don, who was my colleague for 20 years at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and I find myself in agreement with probably 95% or 98% of everything that he writes! But I simply disagree with him on this question.

JC: Your Systematic Theology is a best seller all over the world. What motivated you to write it?

WG: I wanted to help Christians know what the whole Bible teaches about various subjects. I tried to do this in detail in Systematic Theology (1,290 pages) and then in Bible Doctrine (550 pages), and then in the shorter book Christian Beliefs (160 pages). The last is now available in a DVD teaching format [JC: which is outstanding].

Belief and behaviour

JC: Does the fact that you had to abridge Systematic Theology so many times say anything about where the church is regarding its tolerance of teaching doctrine?

WG: I think it tells us that Christians around the world are eager for theological teaching that is (1) based on the Bible much more than on philosophical speculation, (2) clear and understandable, and (3) easily applied to our lives today. I find it interesting that when Bible Doctrine was published and later Christian Beliefs, they did not diminish sales of Systematic Theology. It seems that Christians are eager for sound doctrinal teaching at whatever level of detail and depth is suitable to their own background and the amount of time they have to spend on such a study.

JC: Scripture teaches that we are transformed by the renewing of our minds. How do we avoid filling our mind with knowledge, yet failing to be renewed?

WG: I think it’s always important to ask, ‘What application does this doctrine have to my life? How does it change the way I pray? How does it increase my faith or deepen my worship? How can it lead me to a deeper and fuller trust in God each moment?’

JC: You mentioned the new Christian Beliefs DVD. In 40-minute sessions you teach through the 20 doctrines. What persuaded you to do this extensive DVD programme?

WG: Trevor Allin and Andy Hutchinson [from ClearCut Media] met me in Cambridge for lunch a couple of years ago with an idea: they wanted to have me do a series of lectures on foundational Christian doctrines before a live audience with question and answer. I was interested because people tell me I sound a lot friendlier in person than in print! There is something about a live presentation that communicates in a memorable way.

Second, I have been teaching an adult Bible class at Scottsdale Bible Church in Arizona for about seven years, and I have taught through a wide range of theological topics. People liked the personal presentation of doctrine along with interaction with class members, The DVD series gives this while training people in the Christian faith.

JC: How did you decide which doctrines to teach?

WG: My son Elliot and I sat down and worked out a list of the 20 most important topics we thought all Christians should understand.

We did not choose the topics because we thought they were under attack but because they are foundational Ð topics Christians need to understand in every age and every culture, and they form the foundation for thinking clearly about many other doctrines.

Walking with God

JC: With all your theological work, how do you keep fresh your personal walk with the Lord? What advice would you give those in leadership who are often ‘on the stage’ with regards to keeping their personal spiritual walk on track?

WG: I need to set aside 30 minutes to an hour of personal prayer and Bible reading every morning. If I don’t do that, my relationship with the Lord gets off track. In addition, I think it’s important to be a member of a local church and stay in fellowship with other believers. Margaret and I have been married for 40 years now and for probably 37 or 38 of those years we have been members of some small group or other (we recently joined a new one that was starting in our church). It’s important for people in visible positions of Christian influence to keep regular contact with others, especially Christian laypersons. It’s important to be able to explain to them in ordinary language what project you are working on and why that is helpful for the church.

JC: What do you make of the popularity of some speakers, who develop a big following through their books and podcasts? Is this a helpful trend?

WG: I’m thankful for every way the church is being built up, and every means that God is using to do this. I think that blogs are helpful, and I read two or three, but I don’t have one myself and I don’t plan to have one because of the time they take. It’s not what God has called me to do.

When I see some of my friends speaking at Christian conferences year after year, I sometimes think, ‘Wow! How does he still write as much as he does? I couldn’t do that!’ But I am thankful for the wonderful contribution that these men make to the kingdom. I thank the Lord for them.

God has equipped the church with many people who have various gifts, all parts of one body. To paraphrase 1 Corinthians, the blog cannot say to the podcast, ‘I have no need of you’. Nor should the quiet author say, ‘Because I am not a mega-church pastor, I am not a part of the body’. God has given us all different gifts and interests and different roles, and we need to be thankful for one another.

JC: So, tell us about Wayne Grudem! What do you do in downtime?

WG: Well, I have always liked reading and learning, from early in childhood. Learning in school always seemed fun to me. I find it relaxing to read spy novels, which is a real change of pace for me. My wife Margaret and I enjoy watching movies together, going for walks or eating with friends. I also run or ride a bike for exercise, and go to a local gym.

We have three adult sons. Elliot (a pastor in Raleigh, North Carolina) and his wife Kacey have a daughter. Oliver (a graphic designer in Minneapolis) and his wife Sarah (a professional harpist) have a baby daughter, Ava. Alexander (our youngest son) lives in St. Paul, Minnesota, and teaches history and literature in a private high school.

JC: In a few months’ time you're speaking at New Word Alive. What made you accept the invitation?

WG: I am thankful for the clear stance New World Alive has taken on penal substitutionary atonement. I wanted to stand with them for the importance of defending crucial doctrines. They have asked me to give some talks on the doctrine of Scripture, which I am eager to do.

Formative influences

JC: Which Christians, past or present, have been of greatest influence upon you and why?

WG: I listed eight in the dedication of my Systematic Theology. They included my parents, my Baptist pastor from childhood, three Westminster seminary professors (Edmund Clowney, John Frame, Vern Poythress), and two friends who were pastors, both now with the Lord, one in the charismatic renewal movement (Harald Bredesen), and one in the Vineyard (John Wimber). I wrote that list over 15 years ago. I would keep all eight of them on the list today and probably add a few others such as John Piper, Bruce Ware, C.J. Mahaney, Lane Dennis (of Crossway Books), and my current seminary president Darryl DelHousaye. And the greatest human influence of all has been my wonderful wife Margaret.

As for earlier writers, I think my main influences have been from the Reformed tradition — John Calvin, Charles Hodge, J. Gresham Machen, B.B. Warfield, Louis Berkhof and Herman Bavinck.

Christian Beliefs DVD is available from http://www.10ofthose.com and other Christian bookshops. It retails at £80 but is available for £65 from 10ofthose.

Wayne will be speaking on the doctrine of Scripture at New Word Alive, for which places are still available — see http://www.newwordalive.org for details.