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'I'll shed my blood for you'

The third and final part of an interview with John Piper

The books and conference appearances of John Piper, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church, Minneapolis, have had a tremendous influence on evangelicalism in the UK in recent years. This is the final part of an interview which EN obtained with him recently.

Manhood & womanhood?

EN: You were co-editor of the book Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood with Wayne Grudem which came out in 1991. Also you have been involved with the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood for a number of years. Where do you think the issues of the Bible and gender are now?

JP: I am a fallible cultural observer. But I am more hopeful from my complementarian side than a lot of people are. Many feminists, especially secular feminists, would say 'the battle is over and we've won it!' I think that is extremely naive, because while the battle is over in certain denominations, they move on to fight the battle for homosexuality. Let me just put my cards on the table. If you become rigorously feminist in approach and you say that Galatians 3.28, 'There is neither ... male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus', really means there are to be no role distinctions, then your next move logically will be that there are to be no distinctions between who you marry - man or woman.

I heard a testimony here in Britain just the other day of someone who started out ten years ago dismissing role distinctions, but now admits she has moved on to endorse homosexual relationships on the same hermeneutic.

But there are many churches and big evangelical organisations that have seen the issue and drawn a line. They have said, 'we are complementarian'. They have said that man should be a loving leader at home and that elders and pastors of the church should be men and they have freed women to help in all kinds of other ways. In my church of 2,500 people there are many bright, professional young women who flourish in our complementarian setting and don't chafe under it or resent it. So I think for us the battle is much less painful than it was 25 years ago. Then there would be women getting up and leaving, walking out of the services over something I had said. That never happens any more. You have to take the stand and it gets easier.

EN: Tell us about your new project at Bethlehem, 'Education for Exultation'?

JP: It is a vision for Sunday School youngsters. At the beginning of the 1990s we built a building for worship because we believed that the ultimate goal of life is to exult in God. Now, at the beginning of a new decade we see 800 children under 12 years old and 300 teenagers. We want to build 'oaks of righteousness' (Isaiah 61.3). We want them to grow up to exult in God - in other words to have a passion for God in all things. We want a God-centred children's curriculum. That is so rare in America. We have a vision dimension and a staffing dimension and a training dimension. Now we are trying to put up a new building which will cost something like $6.5 million.

Justification by faith
EN: You are preaching through Romans now. What themes have really struck you and blessed you as you have progressed through that?

JP: Where shall I start? The doctrine of justification by faith alone, apart from the works of the law, is the central message of the book of Romans. It concerns me because in America today the doctrine of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to believers is being called into question. So that is what I have really majored on as I have gone through Romans. Seeing the wrath of God and seeing the cross, then understanding justification by faith alone has become very precious in our church.

But here is a verse which has been a blessing to me. It is Romans 7.4: 'We have died to the law through the body of Christ that we might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.' So there is the link between justification and sanctification. We have got to die to the law. That is justification. In Christ, by faith, you are dead to what he died to. And then you are united to another - Christ. And out of that union you bear fruit for God. So sanctification is rooted in justification, rooted in union with Christ.

So those two particular things have blessed me: a new footing for sanctification in union with Christ and that rooted in justification.

Crossing conferences?

EN: One question which I think many people would want to ask has to do with your willingness to speak at widely differing conferences in this country. How can you go to speak for the Banner of Truth at Leicester and the FIEC at Caister and New Frontiers at Brighton?

JP: The reason I am able to cross those lines is because what I am seeking to do in my emphasis on Christian hedonism has a tremendous affectional element and a profoundly Reformed theological element. And I am pushing those two things together rather than pulling them apart.

So when I preach there is a certain energy and connecting which causes charismatics to say: 'That's a lot like us!' And when I articulate my theology (I am a five-point Calvinist) the Reformed folk hear what they like to hear. So as long as I don't beat up on one side or the other I can cross the lines. I have corrections I would like to make on both sides. But I want to be a bridge-builder rather than a wall-builder.

EN: Is there anything else you want to say to evangelical Christians today?

JP: I want to plead for courage to stand for Christ. I just read a book which spelled out the stampede towards pluralism in Britain. There is a tidal wave moving evangelicalism towards the idea of inclusivism. What I mean by inclusivism is that you don't need to hear about Jesus to be saved and that all religions can get you to heaven if you are sincere enough.

And into this came the terrorist attacks of September 11 on America. Now you can't stand up with a bunch of Muslims and declare 'Christ is the Way' because that will seem like inflammatory language. Yet we have got to say it. We have got to say to the Muslim world, 'I'll shed my blood for you. I won't take your blood to advance my Christianity. But Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but by him.'

That is what I mean by courage. There was an outpouring of compassion on September 11. But also there was an outpouring of cowardice. Inter-faith gatherings are happening everywhere where Christian pastors are wimping out and afraid to say anything distinctive about Christianity. I just plead with Britain and I plead with the churches and Christians everywhere to be lovingly, self-sacrificially, broken-heartedly bold and courageous in telling of the uniqueness and necessity of Jesus Christ if we are to be saved.

John Benton