Discipline of debate

While visiting England in September Professor Jim Packer spoke to EN.

In this, the second part of his interview, he takes up questions which follow on from his emphasis on the need to contend for the biblical gospel within Anglicanism.

EN: How ought biblical Anglicans, perhaps in a diocese with an unsympathetic bishop, be seeking to reform the Church of England?

JIP: That is a very sensitive question. I am a visitor from outside England so I must not shout too loud. But having said that I urge that the discipline of debate must always be the first move. Just to say, for example, that we don't approve of homosexual behaviour, is not enough. The theology that explains why we don't approve must be brought out through preaching and in discussion with the bishop.

The second stage is that if the bishop replies that his theology differs from yours and allows for homosexual activity and he's not budging, the parish can respond by saying, 'Well, bishop, if this is your doctrine it is not Anglican, and we do have problems in viewing you as our chief pastor.' And I don't think it is unprincipled in those circumstances to decline to have him in the church to minister because this is a far reaching and very damaging doctrinal deviation.

When biblical loyalty and Anglican integrity oblige a congregation to fight its bishop over issues of faith and morals, that in itself is a contribution, small but significant, towards reforming the Church of England. The quest for evangelical reformation will sometimes prompt prayer that particular bishops, and other leaders too, will be either changed or replaced.

Exit and inerrancy?

EN: Is there a point at which the local congregation should pull out of the Church of England?

JIP: If, like me, you are an Anglican, not for what the Church is at the present time, but because of the richness of the Anglican heritage and the enormous spiritual potential, if that heritage, by God's grace, can be brought to life, then you will be slow to go. You are not alone, and your congregation will find a lot of support from other evangelicals within the Church of England. I have often been asked when an evangelical should leave the Church of England. My reply always is: 'When you are either silenced, or thrown out - not until then.'

EN: Let's change tack. Belief in the inerrancy of Scripture has sadly been called in question from academics known as evangelical Anglicans. What do you say about that?

JIP: First let me say where I stand. I believe that it is true, as men like Ryle and Warfield long ago said, that the inspiration of Scripture is the nearest thing there is to the incarnation of the Son of God. In both cases you have a mysterious but real union between that which is totally human and that which is totally divine. The Lord Jesus is 100% divine as well as being 100% human. Holy Scripture is 100% divine as God's Word to the world as well as being 100% a human product. And in both cases the 100% human side excludes the marks of the Fall. I mean sin and error.

The word 'inerrancy' is expressing something that is true. There is never a warrant for resolving a Bible problem by saying that the Bible is wrong. I base this position on the testimony of Jesus and his apostles to the Old Testament Scriptures and there are good reasons for putting the New Testament books in the same category of infallible truth. This is the view I maintain and would encourage all evangelicals everywhere to maintain, as the only consistent and Christ-honouring position.

Secondly, it needs to be seen that one of the dangers of the academic trend is losing sight of the forest among the trees. When academics are arguing the details of an unacceptable position there is no short cut. You have to argue back and show that they are involving themselves in large-scale conclusions that a sober minded person would not embrace. Putting it bluntly you don't need to show they are knaves, but you sometimes have to show they are fools. They may not be setting out deliberately to undermine evangelicalism, but they have lost sight of the bigger issue.

Hermeneutics, the study of how and what God is communicating, is the area where the action is today concerning Scripture. We have not yet seen anything authoritative and magisterial in the area of hermeneutics corresponding to the authoritative and magisterial work which people like Warfield produced with respect to inspiration. I hope that lack will soon be supplied.

Evangelicals & Catholics?

EN: Evangelicals & Catholics Together is a project in which you are involved. I think it would be helpful if you could explain its origins?

JIP: It started when two gifted men, Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship, and Richard Neuhaus, a Missouri Lutheran who had become a Roman Catholic, attended a meeting at which a professor of sociology was reporting on the religious situation he had found in South and Central America. He described tensions between Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants (mostly Pentecostals) which were running very high and leading to riots in the streets - sadly with some encouragement from the leadership on both sides. The Catholic bishops described the evangelicals as sheep-stealers and the evangelicals affirmed that the Catholics were not Christians and needed to be saved.

Neuhaus and Colson were depressed by this and thought it would be fruitful to start a conversation (half Catholics and half Protestants) with no official status, to explore the idea of crafting a platform for Catholics and evangelicals working together in evangelism as well as social action. They hoped it could be done in a way that would outflank both sides in the South American situation.

The crucial question, of course, which we have not yet resolved and may never be resolved, is whether such co-operation can be achieved in a way that shelves the question of the relationship between the Church and saving grace. Each side honestly thinks the other is wrong at this point, yet both wish to tell the world that the Jesus of the Scriptures is the Saviour whom everyone needs, and we are exploring how far this might be a matter of joint action.

EN: You are trying to achieve this without the truth of justification by faith alone being compromised?

JIP: Emphatically, yes! We have produced a document entitled 'The Gift of Salvation', which, while not using the customary language of either side, in my judgement affirms justification by faith alone. We have our critics, and we invite critical questioning, but we believe we have stayed faithful to sola fide.

The Catholic system

EN: Many people recognise that there are good Christian people within Roman Catholicism. But what do you think about Roman Catholicism as a system?

JIP: Roman Catholicism as a system has defined itself in a way which is out of step with the Bible on a whole series of key issues relating to Christian life and faith and it has defined itself irreformably. That is what the Catholic doctrines of the infallibility of the Church and of the Pope actually mean: namely that what has been defined cannot be changed! Therefore I don't see how at a Church level there can be a rapprochement between any Protestant body (like the C of E) and the Church of Rome. I think it is foolish for this fact to be fudged by ecumenical spokesmen in the way it so often is.

EN: In your most hopeful moments what do you look for to come out of ECT?

JIP: What I at least am after is local ventures in mission and primary nurture in which RC churches and evangelicals work together, postponing the question of which side of the Reformation divide, in church terms, converts should finally end up and letting them profit from good Bible teaching and fellowship whichever side of that divide they find it.

EN: You are saying the Catholic system as a whole is irreformable, while you look for local partnership. So are you looking for some kind of test to answer the question: 'Is this the kind of Catholic congregation with which we can co-operate, whereas there may be others with which we cannot?'

JIP: Now you are putting me on the skids! But the answer to that is 'Yes'. We know Catholic congregations and Catholic clergy who favour what we are after. How they will get on with their own hierarchy if action proceeds along this path we don't know! What I want to see is the maximum expression in life and service of the measure of real togetherness that God himself has wrought in the lives of individuals on both sides of the Reformation divide.

Confusion or clarity?

EN: But really, because you have said that your document 'The Gift of Salvation' does not compromise justification by faith alone, aren't you in a covert way, looking for Catholics who actually are on the Protestant side?

JIP: Yes, of course I am, and that is because I believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit who teaches believers God's truth through the written Word. I don't believe that even official historic Roman Catholicism can stop that ministry going on.

EN: Though there is much potential for good in this, does this venture not also include potential for confusion?

JIP: That is the constant criticism. But if you look at our documents I think you will see that we have not brought confusion but clarification.

An interview with Jim Packer (Professor of Theology in Vancouver) on evangelicals, the Church of England and Roman Catholicism (Part 2)